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18 September 2003 — Visionquest (26)

Update: This entry (and the next) features a continued exploration of thoughts first shared last fall. You may want to read the genesis of my religious beliefs, the story of my exodus from organized religion, and the revelations of my current spiritual state. The background will let you make more sense of this entry.


Our book group began with Daniel Quinn's Ishmael. The book seemed revolutionary at that stage in my life. I was quite taken with his philosophy, enough so that I was eager to read his next book, the autobiographical Providence: The Story of a Fifty-Year Vision Quest. Because I've always been something of a mystic at heart, Quinn's quest for Truth appealed to me.

Quinn was raised in a churchless home, yet even as a child he was a bit of mystic himself. He communed with insects. Catholicism fascinated him. At the age of twenty, he decided to join a Trappist monastery.

People of modern sensibility can admire someone who enters a religious order to do good works of some kind, to teach or tend the sick or feed the poor. Even sanctity can be swallowed if it's a good, healthy, active kind of sanctity, like Mother Teresa's. What people don't like to see nowadays are saints skulking in their cells staring glassy-eyed at a crucifix. This sort of sanctity strikes them as morbid and sickly, and naturally this was exactly the sort of sanctity I had in mind for myself.

He threw himself into the order with youthful devotion. For three weeks he lived "a constant round of chapel, classroom, chapel, cell, chapel, classroom, refectory, chapel, cell, chapel, classroom, refectory, chapel, cell." He didn't set a foot outside. One day Father Merton said, "I think it's time you went outside." Quinn thought that a swell idea, and began to look forward to work outdoors. At the last minute, another priest forbade him, and Quinn found himself indoors again. He was crushed, distressed, wanted to rebel against the order. Then, quite suddenly, he realized that his ego was in the way. He surrendered, and "gave himself to God." The next day he joined the other novices for a trip outside:

I went last, stepped over the threshold, turned around to close the door, then turned back to face the sunshine.

And the god spoke.

I put it this way. I could put it other ways. I could say that, when I turned to face the sunshine, the veil that clouds our vision was gone from my eyes, and for the first time I saw the world as it is.

There are no words for it.

Someone blind from birth can't imagine what the sighted mean by color, can't fathom what this property might be. If all language were the product of a blind race, the word color would not exist, and if one of that blind race were suddenly to become sighted, he would be unable to describe what he saw; the words would simply not be there for him to use, and this was the way it is for me: The words are simply not there.

But I can put it in other ways, and I will, because that's what I can do.

I turned and faced the sunshine, and the breath went out of me as if someone had punched me in the stomach. That was the effect of receiving this sight, of seeing the world as it is. I was astounded, bowled over, dumbfounded.

I could say that the world was transformed before my very eyes, but that wasn't it—and I knew that wasn't it. The world hadn't been transformed at all; I was simply being allowed to see it the way it was all the time. I, not the world, had been transformed.

I'm trying. Be patient. We've reached the single most important hour of my life, and I have to get it right, have to come as close as I can to getting it right.

I gasped, literally gasped. I lost my breath, seeing that.

Everything was on fire.

I can say it that way, but when you say that something's on fire, you think of the fire as being on it—as a substance that is on the thing.

That wasn't it.

Everything was burning. Yes, that's better. From within, everything was burning.

Every blade of grass, every single leaf of every single tree was radiant, was blazing—incandescent with a raging power that was unmistakably divine.

I was overwhelmed. In a single second of this, of seeing this truth, tears flooded my eyes and poured down my face as I walked along behind the novices. It was strange to see fence posts sitting dead and silent and cold in the midst of this tremendous, thrumming effulgence.

In this vast, scintillating landscape, my nearsightedness was of no account at all. For as far as I could see, for hundreds of yards, I could distinguish with absolute clarity each leaf, each blade of grass—no two alike anywhere. Each was crackling and trembling and all but exploding with the raging power that animated it.

Again I describe that power as raging. Look into a furnace blazing at its top capacity. Look into the heart of a nuclear reaction perhaps. The power that I saw thundering around me makes all our stock images of power seem feeble. But there was no violence or hatred in this rage. This was a rage of joy, of exuberance. This was creation's everlasting, silent hallelujah.

When I first read this passage, my heart sank. I held Quinn on a pedestal at this point, and his blatant spiritualism rankled.

Now, though, seven years further on, I think I know what he was trying to say. As Quinn was experiencing this "vision", it was religious for him, a validation of god, an affirmation that his choice to join the Trappist order was correct. Later in life, the vision took on a different meaning for him. It is this latter meaning which now becomes important to me.

Is it possible to be a mystic, to maintain a sense of awe at life, the universe, and everything, yet deny the possibility of an omniscient, omnipotent being?

Tomorrow: scientific pantheism.

On this day at foldedspace.org

2004Differing Opinions   Dave and I plan to see Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow later in the week. Meanwhile, friends are beginning to chime in with their reviews.

Comments
On 18 September 2003 (11:45 AM), Tammy said:

Oh jd, how dare you throw out bait like that? Well this time i will not bite! (Let it go,tammy let it go)AAArgggghhhhh!


On 18 September 2003 (01:52 PM), Dana said:

Is it possible to be a mystic, to maintain a sense of awe at life, the universe, and everything, yet deny the possibility of an omniscient, omnipotent being?

Of course it is.

" Even if there is only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? The usual approach of science of constructing a mathematical model cannot answer the questions of why there should be a universe for the model to describe. Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing?" -- Steven Hawking

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

He who wonders discovers that this in itself is wonderful. - M.C. Escher, Dutch graphic artist

"The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible." --Albert Einstein

"The effort to understand the universe
is one of the very few things
that lifts human life
a little above the level of farce,
and gives it some of the grace of tragedy." -- Steven Weinberg, Astrophysicist

"What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of "humility". This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism." -- Albert Einstein

"Natural history is not taught in seminary. This is curious, as most people in pastoral ministry are about 567 times more likely to be asked about cosmology or sub-nuclear physics or human biology or evolution than they are to be asked about irregular Greek verbs or the danger of the patripassionist heresy. If we monotheists are going to go around claiming that our “God made the heaven and the earth,” it is not unreasonable to expect us to know something about what that heaven and earth actually are." -- Sarah Maitland

Of all things, good sense is the most fairly distributed: everyone thinks he is so well supplied with it that even those who are the hardest to satisfy in every other respect never desire more of it than they already have. -- René Descartes

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, scince for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despiceable an ignoreable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." -- Albert Einstein

The spaces of the universe…swallow me up like a speck; but I, by the power of thought, may comprehend the universe. - Blaise Pascal, French philosopher, mathematician, and physicist

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --A. Einstein

I believe a leaf of grass is no less than the journey-work of the stars. - Walt Whitman, American poet

"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the "Universe", a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." -- Albert Einstein

To me every hour of light and dark is a miracle, every cubic inch of space a miracle. - Walt Whitman, American poet

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." --Einstein, Albert

" Twinkle, twinkle little star
I don't wonder what you are,
For by spectroscopic ken
I know that you are hydrogen"
( D Bush , Science & English Poetry, OUP 1950)

"If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated."
--Voltaire

My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image to be servants of their human interests. ~George Santayana, 1863-1952

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? ~Douglas Adams

The universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. - Eden Phillpots

All Nature is but Art, unknown to thee. - Alexander Pope, English poet

Reason, Observation and Experience - the Holy Trinity of Science - have taught us that happiness is the only good; that the time to be happy is now, and the way to be happy is to make others so. This is enough for us. In this belief we are content to live and die. If by any possibility the existence of a power superior to, and independent of, nature shall be demonstrated, there will then be time enough to kneel. Until then, let us stand erect. ~Robert G. Ingersoll,

We shall not cease from exploration\ And the end of all our exploring\ Will be to arrive where we started\ And know the place for the first time. - T.S. Eliot, American-born writer

"Philosophy is written in that great book which is ever before our eyes -- I mean the universe -- but we can never understand it if we do not first learn the language and grasp the symbols in which it is written. The book is written in mathematical language and the symbols are triangles, circles, and other geometrical figures, without whose help it is impossible to comprehend a single word of it; without which one wanders hopelessly through a dark labyrinth." -- Galileo

These are a bit more religious, but still pity, I think:

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
--Galileo Galilei

The theoretician's prayer: "Dear Lord, forgive me the sin of arrogance, and Lord, by arrogance I mean the following ..." -- Leon Lederman

I just like this one:

"A physicist who says that a theory is beautiful does not mean quite the same thing that would be meant in saying that a particular painting or a piece of music or poetry is beautiful. It is not merely a personal expression of aesthetic pleasure; it is much closer to what a horse trainer means when he looks at a racehorse and says that it is a beautiful horse. The horse trainer is of course expressing a personal opinion, but it is an opinion about an objective fact: that, on the basis of the judgments that the trainer could not easily put into words, this is the kind of horse that wins races." -- Steven Weinberg

And finally, to sum up:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ~Stephen Roberts


(PS: I'll be curious to see exactly what you mean by Scientific Pantheism...)


On 18 September 2003 (04:12 PM), Joel said:

I think that the natural world with its gleaming firey raging coruscating beauty and whatnot is quite capable of moving us toward a very religious sense of awe. What is more difficult, especially on a more day-to-day, "I'm mowing these leaves of grass and I just encountered a sublime turd that was definitely the journey-work of my neighbor's cocker" is the sense of comfort, of belonging, and most of all, community that traditional worship provides.


On 18 September 2003 (04:30 PM), Denise said:

Being new to your weblog, I found this entry and gen/ex/rev entries to be very interesting since I have struggled with this issue for some time. I am an agnostic and have struggled with religion for some time. I agree that agnostics are basically atheists that cannot bring themselves to accept the fact that there is not some sort of supreme being or deity....mine is based mostly on fear, I think, of a human spirit ceasing to exist after passing. I just cannot seem to accept that we cease to exist after we die. I also have a deep rooted belief that there is 'omniscient being' up there that helps guide us through our life.

So, I guess I have a question (and sorry if this is repetitive of some earlier entry): Do you, as an atheist, think the soul or spirit continues after death?


On 18 September 2003 (04:33 PM), J.D. said:

What is more difficult is the sense of comfort, of belonging, and most of all, community that traditional worship provides.

Joel, you are an astute man. You anticipate some of what I have to say. I think that what you say is absolutely correct, and it is this quest for comfort and belonging which is most difficult for us atheists to obtain. You and I are part of a very small group that strives to do so through the monthly discussion of books, the playing of games, the reading of plays, fall banquets, etc. but it's not quite the same thing.

When I get together with the MNF group, there's a sense of place and identity that pales in comparison to what the book group has. I want for the book group (though it's more than just a book group) to be able to achieve some of that same sense of belonging, etc. (That's one of the reasons I don't like it when we get hung up on rules—what is and isn't allowed—and why I don't like the idea of closing the group to new people. To me, the bigger the group is, the more it can act as a community. I'm in danger of a big tangent now, though, so I'll close this parenthetical remark.)

Only one experience has come close to providing me the communal closeness that I've obtained from religion: college. Willamette was a small school, and it was possible to obtain a tremendous sense of community—sometimes from several communities at once!

I crave that.

Right.

So Denise just posted a question that merits a long reply, and I haven't finished spouting to Joel. But I have to go to physical therapy, so I'll just call this good enough for now.


On 18 September 2003 (04:50 PM), Dana said:

I think that what you say is absolutely correct, and it is this quest for comfort and belonging which is most difficult for us atheists to obtain.

What you are talking about is a sense of family, a sense of community. Church and religious worship has long been a traditional place to find this sort of thing. There are other ways, however.

Lots of people in the TLGB communities end up with "families of choice" as opposed to those families we started out with, usually because of differences in ideology and/or conscious exclusion. Just because they have been chosen doesn't make them any less of a family, at least in my opinion.


On 18 September 2003 (05:05 PM), Joel said:

"Just because they have been chosen doesn't make them any less of a family"
While my own relations with my relations are unfashionably cordial, I agree with you. But how much time do we wind up spending with these communities of choice? During my adolescence, the most religious period of my life, I would attend church on Sunday, youth group Sunday night, Boy Scouts (peopled by many of the same cast of characters) on Monday night, and then church choir followed by Bible study on Wednesday night. Of course, I was just a punk kid without many responsibilities, my parents were almost as active as I was. And they'd have churchmembers over to play bridge.
Nowadays I don't spend that kind of time with anyone other than Aimee and my coworkers. I'd love to hang out with the book clubbers more often, but the committment level just isn't the same as it was with the church.


On 18 September 2003 (05:10 PM), Dana said:

There's no reason you can't have the book club meet weekly.

Heck, when I was in HS our (school sanctioned) D&D club met twice weekly one year.

I agree with you -- there's no external motivator to make you spend more time with a 'family of choice' other than your desire to actually spend more time with them.

I see my friend Zoe a couple times a week, on average, usually just to get dinner, or watch DVDs with her son Alex, or whatever.

You can't do it in a vacuum. Everybody involved has to be willing to arrange their lives so that it's possible. Society and tradition don't really help out -- you have to do the work yourself.

In my experience, anyway.


On 18 September 2003 (05:19 PM), Tiffany said:

I do not believe in God or any other supernatural being. Being brought up in a church it is a big switch. My mom still wonders where she went wrong that both of her daughters are non-believers.
Denise, I believe that your ‘soul’ ceases to exist when you die. It was a hard hump for me to overcome too. It was hard to go from the fairy-tale that ‘if you are nice you will live forever’ to ‘if you are nice, you still die, end of story’. However, I cannot see it any other way.


On 18 September 2003 (06:04 PM), Kris said:

Hey, it's me, the other non-believer Gates sister. I believe that the only way we "live" after we die is in the memories of others and the lasting impacts of our lives on the Earth and our communities. Children are our connection to the future, but so are our friends, our forests, our libraries-- whatever we touch, whatever we invest ourselves in.

It's difficult for me, as a natural introvert (and often somewhat cranky), to show the people in my life how much they mean to me; this is an area in which I am continually striving to improve. If we don't show them when we have the chance, it doesn't matter what happens when we die, in my opinion.


On 18 September 2003 (08:41 PM), Tiffany said:

Well, at least we know where Toto gets it. :)


On 18 September 2003 (10:20 PM), Tammy said:

We all know that i believe the soul does live on. I have been at several death beds in my life and it only takes one experience like that to convince me. I would believe even if I didn't believe the Bible. I don't know if JD remembers our grandmas death. But if you could remain an atheist after watching the incredible scenario that played itself out in that living room that summer night in 1981 than I want to meet you!

I find great comfort in my belief that the soul lives on. I would feel a great void if I were to believe otherwise. How then would we be any different than that possum that someone splayed out on the road? I have a great peace knowing that I will live on eternally.

That sense of community that you are all talking about is very real. I have always had wonderful communities in my life. Being raised in a very strict, close Mennonite environment gave me a very close and comfy community. These people knew me as a child and watched me grow. They were my village! We went to church on Sunday morning and evening and Wednesday nights. Our school was in the basement of the church. Most of us lived within a three mile radius of each other. The community thrived; women helped each other preserve the years harvest, and to sew, and quilt, and wash windows, etc.

Now that I am married and have left that Mennonite Community I have found a community just as close within the Independent Baptist church that I have attended for almost 10 years. We still have church 3 times a week and Saturday bus routes to bus in inner city kids. I have babysitters whenever I want them. I always have soembody to call if I need help. And again we have our own church school where I taught for a couple of years. When we women get together there is just something different about it. We can talk for hours over coffee. You can just feel our very souls unite. We laugh together, we cry together, but most of all we are there for each other no matter how insignificant the problem.

I also belong to the Oregon City Moms Club. I have belonged to that club for almost 4 years. But do you know what? It too pales in comparison to the sense of identity and comfort that can be found within my church community.

I also live in a neighorhood where neighbors run in and out of each others homes all day without knocking. Wherever our children are for lunch there they get fed. Imprompto deck parties are held all summer. We just seem to migrate to each others back yards where we sit and visit till past midnight. I truly have the proverbial village in which to raise my kids. But it too can't hold a candle to the soul feeling I feel when with my church friends.

Could it be that unless God is an integral part of that community, that one will always feel a sense of longing? Could it be that we do have eternal souls and that our souls are forever searching for a peace that can only be found when we give our heart and soul over to the creator; the One that truly loves and understands the human plight?

You all know what my answer is to the above question. I know you don't want to hear from me yet again, but I think you are all searching for the one true God. He's not hard to be found you know. He's only a prayer away.


On 19 September 2003 (05:16 AM), dowingba said:

I find great comfort in speculating about a soulless afterlife. Sit and think, seriously, about what it's like to not exist. Seems pretty peaceful to me.


On 19 September 2003 (07:27 AM), J.D. Roth said:

On 19 September 2003 (10:00 AM), Denise said:

I am still not convinced that a soul ceases to exist when a person dies. I agree that what is important about the life we live today is how we touch people and things around us, but I just can't let go of the idea of an everlasting soul.

Maybe this is connected to the fact that I believe in ghosts. Too much Stephen King in high school I guess......


On 19 September 2003 (10:46 AM), Dana said:

Tammy I truly have the proverbial village in which to raise my kids. But it too can't hold a candle to the soul feeling I feel when with my church friends.

...I think you are all searching for the one true God. He's not hard to be found you know. He's only a prayer away.

Not to be tiresome, but I'm going to reiterate three of the quotes:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." -- Einstein, Albert

"Reason, Observation and Experience - the Holy Trinity of Science - have taught us that happiness is the only good; that the time to be happy is now, and the way to be happy is to make others so. This is enough for us. In this belief we are content to live and die. If by any possibility the existence of a power superior to, and independent of, nature shall be demonstrated, there will then be time enough to kneel. Until then, let us stand erect." -- Robert G. Ingersoll

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen Roberts

Your dismissal of all other gods is more or less equivalent to my dismissal of all of them, plus yours.

What makes your religion right and other religions wrong? You believe you are right. And so do they. I think you're all wrong. I agree with you that they are wrong, and I agree with them that you are wrong.

I can understand that you find the greatest sense of community in your church, and I can understand why, and I can even see how sharing the same faith can strengthen that.

But at the same time, that doesn't preclude other, non-religious groups, from having the same sense of commeraderie and community. It's just a question of finding it.

Even amongst those who regularly attend church, not all of them find that to be the most fulfilling of their associations.

One last thing in response to Tammy:

Tammy We laugh together, we cry together, but most of all we are there for each other no matter how insignificant the problem.

I'm curious how you reconcile this with your disgust over gay and transgendered people? If one of your church members was transgendered, and unapologetic about it (as I am), would you and your church still be there for that person, through all of the travails of their life? Or would you require them to conform to your own choices before making them welcome in your community? I know you would still care about them, but I'm curious how you would treat such a person face-to-face.

I don't mean to be snippy. I'm honestly curious what Tammy thinks of this.

Denise I just can't let go of the idea of an everlasting soul.

I understand. Here's how I think about it (and I grant that this is pretty mechanistic).

As near as I can determine, brains and nerve tissue are analog computers. Consciousness as I experience it seems to be a side effect of the operation of that analog computer. One of the differences between an analog and a digital computer is that the 'program' of an analog computer is actually built into it's wiring. Kind of like how the synapses of the brain are layed out, and the patterns and interconnects. I think consciousness is a byproduct of the physical structure of the human brain. I think it's biochemical and bioelectric in nature, and a completely physical and knowable process, like digestion, or photosynthesis.

If this is in fact the case, then when the brain dies, what is left? I don't think there's anything left. Or, rather, like Kris, I think there are memories left in the minds of others, and there are institutions, artifacts, and traditions that we instigated or took part in creating or continuing.

That is the legacy of a person, I think, not a supernatural spirit.

And I don't think there's anything special about the human brain, aside from it's density. Several of the other apes are capable of tool use, culture, and communication. Not to the degree we are, perhaps, but that doesn't rule it out entirely. They may be of a different degree than us, but they are not of a different kind. They are conscious sentient beings just as we are.

Like most things, I think it's a continuum.

And you know what? It's amazing and beautiful, no matter how it all got here. Yes, it's sad to think of people being gone in a permanent sense. But it's amazing that we exist at all, even for a short period of time, and that amazing thing, for me, is enough. There will be people I can't even begin to imagine after me, just as there were people before me. And I can affect their lives just as surely as if I was there with them based upon what I do today, here and now, in the time I have available.

The Christian notion of heaven and hell has always bothered me a bit. It makes it easier to justify and accept that your life sucks now, because it'll be better later. So, while it's a sin to be cruel to people, it's okay, because they'll get what they deserve later.

It's kind of like a simultaneous bribe ("Don't revolt, accept your lot in life, because after you die it'll be better forever") and a justification for war ("They don't believe as we do, so we'd better kill 'em, and it's okay to oppress 'em, 'cause they're heathens and we're going to go to heaven, being all godly and whatnot") and cruelty ("Ah, it's okay if I oppress all these serfs, as they'll get their reward in the afterlife while I get mine now.").

It seems far better to me to work for happiness, equality, and tolerance now, here, where we know it can do good, than it is to wait for it to be given to us after death by some supernatural being who cannot be shown to exist.

But that's just me, and I'm a cynical pragmatist.

(PS. I'm sorry for going on at such length continually in these comments. I hope nobody is bothered by that, or feels I'm dominating the conversation. I'm not trying to, honest!)


On 19 September 2003 (10:54 AM), dowingba said:

Dana, whether or not the program is built in has little to do with whether or not its analogue or digital. The first computers were digital and had the program built in, for instance. VHS tapes are analogue programs that aren't built in. The difference is that digital things read digits and analogue things read shapes/patterns.

Not that it has anything to do with the conversation.


On 19 September 2003 (11:10 AM), J.D. said:

Tammy: If you could remain an atheist after watching the incredible scenario that played itself out in that living room that summer night in 1981 than I want to meet you!

Hi. My name is J.D. I was there when grandma died and I'm an atheist. Perhaps we should meet sometime?

Actually, I used grandma's death as the starting point for a short story in college. Many of the people here have read it. Maybe I'll post a revised version of it sometime.

Tammy: I think you are all searching for the one true God.

And which god is that? Yours? Your neighbor's? You know those men who flew the jet planes into the World Trade Center? They did that for the one true God. Funny how everyone thinks his god is the one true God. It's such self-assuredness over religion that leads to most of the strife in this world. It's not satan that causes the trouble, it's god.

RE: community from sources other than church

Nick and I had a brief conversation regarding this subject this morning. He contends that our book group cannot possibly have the same sense of community because it operates on too shallow of a level. He cited support groups as examples of small communities that are similar to chruch congregations.

Perhaps he's right.

I think, though, that the frequency of meeting has more to do with the sense of bondedness. When Mac and Pam and Kris and I were seeing each other two, three, four times per week, there is little I wouldn't have done for the Proffit-Smiths. I felt that bond, that deep religious tie. I feel it any time a group meets together often enough, long enough. That's what made college such a wonderful experience: for four years I was surrounded by the same group of people, and we got to know each other very well.

I'm sure that the depth of the relationship has some affect on the feeling of community, but I suspect that the frequency with which the members meet has more.

Now I'll try to finish the next post. It's half done, but it's on my iBook, which has decided that it wants to crash. I'm attempting to salvage the entry as it crashes. :)


On 19 September 2003 (11:19 AM), Tammy said:

"If one of your church members was transgendered, and unapologetic about it (as I am), would you and your church still be there for that person, through all of the travails of their life? Or would you require them to conform to your own choices before making them welcome in your community? I know you would still care about them, but I'm curious how you would treat such a person face-to-face."

Well Dana, first and formost, a transgenderd person would not be a member of my church. If, however, he repented of his sin and changed his lfestyle he then would be recieved into the fellowship.

The way transgenderd people would be recieved in my community and the way they would be treated face to face are two entirely different things.

If we were to meet a transgendered person we would be civil and kind. If however he tried to become part of us he would have to change. If he was already a member and then decided to be transgenderd we would have nothing to do with him. (other than to try to get him to see that he is on the wrong path) I know that sounds harsh. But sin cannot be winked at!

But that does not mean that we wouldn't love that individual. It just means that we cannot in any way condone that life style. We would definitley pray earnestly for that person.

Why would we break all ties with a transgendered person? Because we have a standard of holiness that we as Christians are expected to live up to. Because we would not want that kind of influence around our children. And beause the Bible says that we are to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness.

As I said earlier, if you were to repent we would take you back with open arms.

And by the way I am not "disgusted" with transgendered and gay people. I am deeply saddened by their choices. I have great pity for them whether you want my pity or not.

You see Dana, you have never known what it is to live a normal life so you do not have anything to measure your happiness by. You have no idea how wonderful life can be. Society has not accepted you, the work place has not accepted you, your parents have not accepted you. You have always struggled with the very essence of who you are. The only acceptance you have found; the only community that will embrace you are the other social misfits. For that I pity you. You will die never having truly lived.


On 19 September 2003 (11:24 AM), Tammy said:

I can't possibly see how God can cause any trouble, Jd. After all, He doesn't exist.


On 19 September 2003 (11:58 AM), Denise said:

Dana, I completely understand your argument and agree that if you look at it logically, the soul would cease to exist once a person is dead. I think my struggle is based on being raised Christian and having those fears of hell that you refer to in your comment. If I denounce God, and there ends up being a God, then I'm really screwed and I'm going to hell for sure, regardless of if I'm a good person or not. (The comical thing is that by not believing in religion, some people would argue that I'm on my way there anyway.) I think this is a personal struggle that I will have to deal with eventually – but right now it is easier for me just to live in my little agnostic bubble.

I do agree with you about religion - I have a problem with any religion or God that would condemn someone based on sexual orientation. I tend to think religion is basically a tool created by man to control the masses and make money. I find it interesting that the last three churches I attended actually had the donations to date vs. budget printed on their bulletin, with a reminder if the congregation was behind on the projected dollar amount for that month. Why don't you just charge a cover at the door?

Ok - that was a tangent - what I am trying to say is that I agree people should not be condemned because they are different. Gay/transexual/transgendered - whatever - people are people and whether or not you are a good person is not directly connected to your sexuality.


On 19 September 2003 (12:06 PM), Denise said:

Ok - now what are calling a normal life? Does Dana go to work, pay bills, eat, go to the bathroom, love, laugh, cry, etc.? That would be fairly normal. I am heterosexual and I would deem my life anything but normal. I am a single mother of a seven-month old.....is that normal? It wasn't 20 years ago, but it might be today.

I don't think it is fair to determine what is normal and what isn't.


On 19 September 2003 (12:18 PM), Joel said:

In reading Leonard George’s interesting essay on the Soul (thanks for the link JD) I am drifting in a new direction regarding the religious questions we are bandying about. Perhaps, rather than merely giving Denise a “consoling fantasy” (to use his and others' charming term), the idea of the immortal soul is to compensate for the extreme loneliness that comes with consciousness. Here we are, rattling around inside our own heads, and so often it seems that all others are so strange, unconnected, barely even real to us. We are the stars of our own movie (in my case, a blood-soaked action flick featuring the cast of the “Muppet Show”) and everyone else can become so many expendable sublots filled with extras. To put it another way, we are constantly reinforcing our own sentience: We think about thinking; we think about ourselves, our future, everyone else’s reaction in terms of its affect on us. We are blessed with individualistic selfishness, it allows us hope and motivation and real inspiration about “What I can do to be great!” But we’re also afraid of being individuals, so we generate the immortal soul. As George puts it (though he probably would be troubled at the conclusions I am drawing from his words): “Foreign though it might feel at first, try considering [the concepts of souls, spirits] as modes of experience or attitudes or ways of knowing…. What is "Body"? A body is what is experienced when we relate to something as an object…. We can relate to anyone or anything as bodies. When we do, we don’t feel that the body we meet, the object, has an "inner life" that corresponds and calls to our own interiority, our animation. When we’re with an object, only its external features touch and are touchable and we only relate to its usefulness. The bank teller is just a protoplasmic ATM. It’s a thing, not a person. A meat puppet. What is "Soul"? A soul is what is experienced when we relate to something as if it has an inner life like we do. It now feels "animated". Meeting an ensouled being seems to recruit an organ inside us, a touching within, in addition to the contact of our regular senses. There is a resonance, a more holistic relating, as it includes outer and inner reality. When we relate in this way, soul to soul, the object of our relation is not just a thing, but a Presence….”
Most people deny that they act almost entirely from selfish motivations. I think such people are engaging in a fairly healthy delusion because of the bad rep that selfishness has. But there are limits to its use, and “ensouling” people can allow us to overcome our tyrannical Selves.


On 19 September 2003 (12:20 PM), Tammy said:

Normal: Conforming to the standard or the common type; usual, not abnormal; regular, natural (Websters Dictionary)

A single parent, hetrosexual women is indeed normal! Over half of the children in America belong to single parent families.


On 19 September 2003 (01:52 PM), Dana said:

Er, this may be another long one. I'll try to be brief...

Tammy first and formost, a transgenderd person would not be a member of my church. If, however, he repented of his sin and changed his lfestyle he then would be recieved into the fellowship.

I guess I have two problems with this. First, you said that your community would be supportive and there for you no matter what you were going through, now you are saying that if someone was going through a specific difficult thing you would reject and cast them out if their decisions didn't match with your own judgement. I guess I don't see that as unconditional acceptance and support.

Second, how can you be sure such a person isn't already a member of your church?

LGBT Mennonite resources.

LGBT Baptist resources.

Why I Changed My Mind

Tammy You have no idea how wonderful life can be. Society has not accepted you, the work place has not accepted you, your parents have not accepted you. You have always struggled with the very essence of who you are. The only acceptance you have found; the only community that will embrace you are the other social misfits. For that I pity you. You will die never having truly lived.

I guess I find this a bit presumptuous. Yes, I have known rejection. But it's not quite as all-consuming as you are making it out to be, here. The vast majority of people I've interacted with have treated me politely, with respect, tolerance, and inclusivity. My own fears of rejection have proven to be far worse than the reality.

But you know what? I was rejected well before I was honest about being transgendered. I was rejected for being too smart. Or not smart enough. Or not being good at baseball. Or being too short. Or doing well in math. Or reading too much. Or being the new kid (we moved three or four times as I was growing up).

This is just another thing. Yes, there are differences, but they are differences of degree, not kind. Kind of like breaking an arm instead of breaking a leg, if you want an analogy.

And I feel far more alive presenting as Dana than presenting as Dane. If I never presented as Dana, I would truly have never lived. I only feel that now, expressing this, have I truly started to live.

dowingba whether or not the program is built in has little to do with whether or not its analogue or digital.

Actually, I'm talking about Analog Computers in a very specific way.

Pretty much every computer anybody comes into contact with is a general purpose digital computer. Yes, you can embed programs into ROM, or something similar. Or you can 'hard wire' problems into digital circuits.

But what makes it digital is that the important thing about it is whether switches are on or off. That's it.

An analog computer uses the voltage levels, current, resistences, inductions, and whatnot of the components making up the circuit. You lay the circuit out based on your problem, you select values for the various electronic components that correspond to particular values in your problem, and then you power up the circuit and measure the voltage (or whatever) at a particular point in the circuit. The value you get for the voltage is actually the value of the answer.

You can make such a system far more compactly than you can a digital system. But you if you want to solve a different problem, you have to rewire it, possibly adding or removing components.

Kind of like the way the brain rewires itself over time as learning and memories get stored in it...

Analog Computer Museum

The Wikipedia, always a good resource.

EE Times article about the differences (and explaining a bit about Turing Machines, which would be a more accurate description of the computers we use than 'digital')

Analog computer Heathkit from 1960!

Denise If I denounce God, and there ends up being a God, then I'm really screwed and I'm going to hell for sure, regardless of if I'm a good person or not.

Who says? I mean, is God all-knowing and loving? If so, why would he do something so mean as condemn you to eternal pain and suffering just because you wouldn't believe in him when he didn't give you any evidence? The Bible does not count as evidence in any but the circular logic of those who already believe it to be true.

Joel A soul is what is experienced when we relate to something as if it has an inner life like we do. It now feels "animated". Meeting an ensouled being seems to recruit an organ inside us, a touching within, in addition to the contact of our regular senses. There is a resonance, a more holistic relating, as it includes outer and inner reality.

I think you are right, Joel. I think the term you might be stretching for is Empathy. When you empathize with something, it takes on qualities similar to your self, and it becomes harder to treat that thing as something other than you yourself are.

Another repeat quote:

"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the "Universe", a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." -- Albert Einstein

Which brings me full circle back to Tammy! (I'm not trying to pick on you, Tammy. I think you know we don't agree on much =) )

Tammy Normal: Conforming to the standard or the common type; usual, not abnormal; regular, natural (Websters Dictionary)

The Normal Distribution, which is a math definition of normal.

Estimates of TG demographics -- conclusion? Looks like about 1:250 for TG people, with 1:10 for LGB people(a different set of demographics here).

Compare 1:250 to the Normal Distribution. That is, "almost all" in a normal distribution is 99.7%. But 1:250 is 0.4%. 100%-99.7% = 0.3%.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that a lot of TG people aren't normal. I'd put it at about 50/50 in my personal experiences. Most of us have one or more other issues (I'm both TG and depressed, for example -- about half my group has both of those plus another two or three issues, either physical, mental, or social).

I look unremarkable (as opposed to looking like a freak). I do have a job, I do pay bills, I do shop for groceries, I do go and have fun with my friends. If you subtracted my TG and depression from my life, I would be completely 'normal'. As it is, I'm still 'mostly normal'.

It's just that the way I'm 'not normal' is something that really really bugs a lot of people. I had my tonsils out when I was four. I had my wisdom teeth out when I was in college. People keep asking me why I don't get laser eye surgery. People get new livers and kidneys because they drank their old ones to death. People have their appendixes out every day. But fix my body to match my gender? Pierce my ears? Wear makeup? Shock and horror!

Consider another way I'm not normal. I had IQ tests when I was in school. I scored a 146. That's better than 99.8% of the people who take those tests -- again, outside the 'normal' distribution, more than 3 standard deviations from the mean.

But nobody wants to throw me out of the church because I'm 'not normal'. Being smart is an acceptable way of being 'not normal'. Except for intolerant bullies at school who use it as an excuse to beat people up. And who says what is and what is not acceptable? People, and societies, and religions, and institutions, and governments do. All those things are made up of people, ultimately. People decide.

• Homosexuality is not "natural," that is, it does not exist in nature; therefore this proves it is dysfunctional.

Each culture defines what is "natural" to fit its own context. Historians tell us that homosexuality has existed since the earliest of human societies. Anthropologists report that lesbians and gay men have been part of every culture. In one study of non-Western cultures, 64% of the respondents considered homosexuality as "normal and socially acceptable." It is also a well known fact that same sex behavior is "natural" between animals."

Pax.


On 19 September 2003 (02:21 PM), Dana said:

D'oh!

Forgot to include a reference to IQ distribution info.


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