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19 September 2003 — Pantheism (43)
A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.—Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot (1994)

Last week there was an excellent post on Metafilter (which has been experiencing a renaissance as of late) about Heraclitus the Obscure. "Who the hell is Heraclitus the Obscure?" you're asking yourself, as I did, and so I'm quoting the entire main post below. It's an awesome post. (Comments about the post can be found here.)

Heraclitus of Ephesus, sometimes called Heraclitus the Obscure: We only know him through 100 gnomic quotes and aphorisms--I loves me some gnomic aphorisms!--all direct from or inferred in the comments of various authors of Classical literature, of which no one steps into the same river twice is the best known. Mark Cohen, J. H. Lesher and Cynthia Freeman provide excellent introductions. John Burnett's 1920 translation is another academic standard. Jonathan Barnes. whose Penguin Classic The Early Greek Philosophers has the best contemporary translation, wrote Heraclitus attracts exegetes as an empty jampot wasps; and each new wasp discerns traces of his own favourite flavour. Here are the jampots of Friedrich Nietzsche, Bertrand Russell and Martin Heidegger. And here, in passing, is a taste of the jampot of Jorge Luis Borges. Heraclitus coined the word enantiodromia. John William Corrington's Logos, Lex, And Law is also of interest. Heraclitus figures strongly in the Archetypal Psychology of Carl Jung and James Hillman, the latter especially in his discussion of the Soul.
posted by y2karl at 5:59 AM PST

You didn't read all that did you? And you didn't follow the links. Too bad; it's brilliant stuff. (One of the best Metafilter posts I've seen in a long time; y2karl put a lot of work into it.)

Let me summarize: Heraclitus was an early Greek philosopher who lived in Ephesus a few hundred years before Christ. Little is known of his life, and not much survives of his thought. What does survive was often reported second- or third-hand. Heraclitus was a materialist. Though some of what he taught seems absurd now—he thought the sun was no larger than a foot—he had a profound influence on later Greek philosophers.

Plato said of him: "Heraclitus, you know, says that everything moves on and that nothing is at rest; and, comparing existing things to the flow of a river, he says that you could not step into the same river twice."

That's all quite nice, but what really caught my attention while reading about Heraclitus were a couple of references to a concept known as scientific pantheism. These two words seem at odds to me. I think "scientific monotheism" is a contradiction, how absurd must "scientific pantheism" be? Still, I followed some links.

It turns out that my internal definition of pantheism was all wrong. I'd always thought, for example, that the Greeks were pantheistic because they worshipped a large number of deities. The definition of pantheism is something altogether different. "First used by John Toland on 1705, the term pantheist denotes one who holds both that everything there is constitutes a unity, and that this unity is divine." (The Oxford Companion to Philosophy)

To quote one site:

Do you feel a deep sense of peace and belonging and wonder in the midst of nature, in a forest, by the ocean, or on a mountain top? Are you speechless with awe when you look up at the sky on a clear moonless night and see the Milky Way strewn with stars as thick as sand on a beach? When you see breakers crashing on a rocky shore, or hear wind rustling in a poplar's leaves, are you uplifted by the energy and creativity of existence?

Do you find it impossible to believe in supernatural beings, and difficult to conceive of anything more worthy of reverence than the beauty of nature or the power of the universe?

If you answered yes to these questions, then you will feel thoroughly at home in the World Pantheist Movement. Our caring and celebratory approach focuses on nature rather than the supernatural, on what we can see and do and live out rather than on invisible entities that we can only imagine.

It's easy for me to give an enthusiastic yes to all of these questions. Just last month I wrote in this space:
When I'm alone in the woods I feel a sort of energy coursing through my being, some sort of verdant force that quickens my mind and lightens my feet. I feel alive. I feel kinship with the rocks and trees and ferns and streams. I want to run wild, barefoot through the forest. When I am alone in the woods, I can almost believe in a God. Not your God maybe, nor your brother's God, but some sort of God nonetheless.
It would seem that the pantheists would be natural fit for me. Yet when I read the pantheist manifesto something rings false. Yes, I believe most of the movement's tenets, yet something seems too, too, I don't know, too hokey about all this, as if it's some sort of New Age religion. The idea of pantheism excites me, but its practice looks like Unitarianism, and leaves the same bland taste in my mouth. (Maybe part of my personal creed is an aversion to organize religion of any sort.)

Still, I like how the pantheists have appropriated the term "god". I like their ideals. I admire their aims. I especially admire the manner in which the pantheists attempt to reconcile scientific knowledge with spirituality. From a pantheism FAQ:

Is Pantheism just atheism or humanism in disguise?

No. Like atheism and humanism, pantheism does not believe in a personal God separate from the Universe. Like them it is critical of beliefs that depend on faith in impossibilities, or unproven revelations in ancient books.

But atheism is essentially defined by a negative. It states that there is no God, and nothing more. It is not a coherent philosophy. Humanism has tried to develop a positive philosophy, but sometimes this has been too anthropocentric, too confident of human superiority.

Pantheism goes far beyond atheism in offering a positive approach to the world and a a reverent and religious attitude towards nature and the universe. It affirms our unity with these, and rejects the idea of human mastery over nature or human pre-eminence in the cosmos. It takes our relationship to nature and to the universe as the centre of our religion, our ethics and our aesthetics.

Am I a pantheist? I don't know. I need to think. I need to read more about the concept.

Are you a pantheist?

On this day at foldedspace.org

2005Monday Night Football   Tonight, the Monday Night Football crowd gathered for the first time this year. I spent much of the evening quizzing Steve about Africa.

Comments
On 19 September 2003 (12:33 PM), Tammy said:

NO!


On 19 September 2003 (12:38 PM), Dana said:

Haven't actually looked into it, but everything you've written about it certainly sounds agreeable to me. But while you are uncertain, I'm quite sure that I'm allergic to organized religion. Lets all get together and venerate the Universe together. Erm.

I'll just do it by living as good a life as I can, and try to make things better, thanks.


On 19 September 2003 (01:00 PM), Paul said:

I have read much less than you about pantheism, in that I read a article this summer in Untne Reader on this topic. I agree that the talking points of pantheism speak innately to my, your, interaction with the surrounding universe. However, upon reading a little of the books referenced for the article, I became disenchanted. I believe that my disenchantment came from a lack of concrete tenants of pantheism. This should probably be attributed to my lack of research. A superficial reading of buddhist refernce books typically introduces the 7 fold paths to enlightenment. So, being an American that wants a quick answer, I didn't get that from pantheism. Which probably should tell me that it is something to look into more deeply because it is more complicated than western religious philosophy. I would be interested in your comparison and contrast of buddhism and pantheism.


On 19 September 2003 (01:02 PM), Joel said:

Dana, while I certainly cannot criticize your adoption The Golden Rule, I don't really see how it relates to your (or your various authors') reverence for the universe. Einstein says because we love the universe it is our duty to be more compassionate toward other living things. Ingersoll, as you've quoted him, sez: "Reason, Observation and Experience - the Holy Trinity of Science - have taught us that happiness is the only good; that the time to be happy is now, and the way to be happy is to make others so."
Looking up at the Milky Way, listening to breakers crash on a deserted, moon-swept beach, why should I suddenly feel the urge to go volunteer at the local soup kitchen? I rarely see any of Nature's other living creatures helping each other out unless they're (mostly) mammals who are directly related.

I agree with you that gathering together to venerate the universe sounds pretty stupid. Much better to get together and just study the damn thing, without all the oooohs and ahhhhs. But how is that connected with your decision to "make things better"?


On 19 September 2003 (01:53 PM), Denise said:

I am not a Pantheist. Wasn't it Aristotle that stated (something like) it is man's ability to reason that separates him from other creatures? I know I could look this up and link it but I'm at work and I don't have time.

And here's a question – does nature or the creatures in nature strive to be spiritual? If they do not - how can we be spiritual by being connected ourselves with them?

So, I am once again stuck in my agnostic bubble until something better comes along.


On 19 September 2003 (02:04 PM), dowingba said:

JD, since you asked, that particular EULA in the story linked to above is not enforceable. Contract law clearly states that there has to be "concent" and that doing nothing does not constitute consent. If there is no contract to read, you can't legally agree to it. So they can use that computer at will. They can even copyright it if they want, because there's no EULA.


On 19 September 2003 (02:10 PM), Dana said:

Joel Dana, while I certainly cannot criticize your adoption The Golden Rule, I don't really see how it relates to your (or your various authors') reverence for the universe.

Ah, I am unclear. :(

If I start from a clean slate -- what I myself can experience, think, and observe -- then I can't reason all the way to an overarching supernatural supreme being. I can't rule one out, but I certainly can't conclude that one exists for sure.

Likewise, I can't conclude for sure that any sort of after life exists.

So, no Heaven, no Hell or, at least, no reason to assume there is a Heaven or Hell for sure.

In the absence of a punishment or reward for my actions after death, I can only be certain of the pain and suffering that I can experience, perceive, or learn exists today, here, amongst the living. Consequences for whatever I do are bounded by my own life and may or may not follow me afterwards.

But consequences, pain, and suffering are real now, here. So, what to do?

The only logical thing to do is focus not on the spiritual afterlife, whose existence is uncertain, but the physical 'current life' which is all around us. I'd like to live in a paradise, but I can only be certain of 'here' being 'here'. So, I have to make here the paradise I wish the afterlife could be. We're all in this together.

I'm skipping some steps in the logic, but that's where I get, and I get the sense that Einstein and Ingersoll went through much the same reasoning.

Denise does nature or the creatures in nature strive to be spiritual? If they do not - how can we be spiritual by being connected ourselves with them?

I haven't the slightest idea. I have a theory, though (I always have a theory :/)!

I think being spiritual has a lot more to do with the state of our own internal consciousness than it does with the external world. That internal state can and does affect how we interact with other creatures, people, and things. It motivates some things, it proscribes some others. It informs our approach to the known and the unknown.

I also think it's another side effect of the human experience of self-consciousness. I don't know that a dog, for example, can be spiritual. I don't think their minds operate on that level.

But dogs (and cats) certainly experience empathy and sympathy. Pets know and are supportive when you are sick. They can also communicate with us in various ways. You know when a dog wants to go outside, when he's happy, when he's hungry, or whatever. You know those things because you and he can communicate. Not as fully as you can communicate to another person, but it's certainly communication.


On 19 September 2003 (02:20 PM), Dana said:

D'oh! I didn't actually finish answering Joel's question.

The sort of 'mechanical' 'scientific' awe of nature is something that arises out of understanding how things work and fit together. The passage of every minute, the growth of every blade of grass, the motion of the stars and planets, everything. It's all absolutely fantastic stuff.

It's kind of parallel to the golden rule bit, but it's common for people who have one to have the other.

The sheer joy at the processes of the universe tends to come from people who are scientifically minded, and who have training in at least some symbolic logic. And the conclusions about the golden rule (which, frankly, are very close to the kinds of conclusions you get from the classic Prisoner's Dilemma) seem to be 'obvious' to those people.


On 19 September 2003 (02:30 PM), Joel said:

Dana said: "The sheer joy at the processes of the universe tends to come from people who are scientifically minded, and who have training in at least some symbolic logic. And the conclusions about the golden rule (which, frankly, are very close to the kinds of conclusions you get from the classic Prisoner's Dilemma) seem to be 'obvious' to those people."

Ah, so a smaller group of people who, through rigorous application and semi-ritualized activity, come to believe the same "truths" about existence, yes? Sorry, don't buy it. I work with lots of science-types, they're just as likely to be bastards as religiosos or any other human being. Which is not to say that scientific aspiration isn't wonderful, just that it seeks no, nor needs no moral component.


On 19 September 2003 (02:35 PM), dowingba said:

I don't like how "atheists" are always assumed to have no good reason to use "the golden rule". It's called "empathy". I don't treat others good because I fear punishment. I do it because I am a human, and they are humans.


On 19 September 2003 (02:46 PM), Dana said:

Joel so a smaller group of people who, through rigorous application and semi-ritualized activity, come to believe the same "truths" about existence, yes?

Well, not exactly.

Tends and seems are wiggle words on my part. Obviously, not everybody arrives at the same place, even when they start from the same place and have the same raw materials.

Another way to say this, although it's more judgemental than I like, is that everybody who is smart is not wise. People who I personally respect and admire for both wisdom and intelligence (ie, Einstein) seem to have arrived at conclusions similar (although not identical -- Einstein was not and athiest, as I recall) to my own.

Joel Which is not to say that scientific aspiration isn't wonderful, just that it seeks no, nor needs no moral component.

Absolutely. But it can lead to an ethics just as 'moral' and profound as religion.


On 19 September 2003 (02:55 PM), Tammy said:

This is good! Somebody else debating Dana for a while.


On 19 September 2003 (03:14 PM), Dana said:

I'll take all comers! Let me at 'em! =)


On 19 September 2003 (03:29 PM), Joel said:

Alas, I feel that for the truly unbounded scientific enquiry there is no ethic. The code that scientists are bound to adhere to is simply that of there culture or country. I feel no personal qualm about stem cell experimentation on unused embryos, and yet in our country it is unethical, the logic being a somewhat absurd extension of the Golden Rule to encompass a not-quite-alive potentiality.
If we consider that science is the unbridled desire to know as much as possible, it is as devoid of ethics as a feeding shark is of restraint. Naturally our scientists do not act this way. We'd make a great many more truly vital discoveries if we allowed ourselves to experiment in dangerous ways upon human beings, things that, logically considered, would benefit the great majority of humans, and indeed, living things across the board, far and above the considerations of the individual experimented upon. Yet we do not, because we feel a natural revulsion toward such cruelty. Yes, we feel empathy, but we are the opposite of Marcel's housekeeper (Yay! A Proust reference! Gotta get a bigger bag for these brownie points.), we feel empathy for the individual close at hand, not for the human race or the living planet in general. Pantheism, as a credo to "Love Everything," seems to me to be as unscientific as David Koresh's "Love Me, Particularly You There, In the Tank-Top." We can love the stars, the waves, the hunks of ice swirling slowly around Saturn, but I assure you it will be unrequited. And at the end of the day, we'll feel just as alone.


On 19 September 2003 (03:32 PM), Joel said:

Correction: "we feel empathy for the individual close at hand, not for the human race or the living planet in general."

Should read: "we feel a reasonable empathy for the indvidual close at hand..."

It would really be nice, JD, if you could rig it so we could edit our own posts, eh?


On 19 September 2003 (03:54 PM), Tammy said:

It's because of people that believe like you do about enbryo research that I used all nine of my embryos. Six of them were frozen for 5 years. When thawed only one survived. He is now two years old. Thank God he was not used for research.
He's a beatiful blond haired blue eyed little boy. Those embryos "make" real little people. That's too easily forgotten.


On 19 September 2003 (04:02 PM), Joel said:

Tammy, I don't mean to be grotesque about this embryo thing, but what happened to those embryos that didn't survive? They were disposed of, right? So, since they were not being used to provide you with a child (a joyful event that I do not mean to denigrate), they could have contributed to research that would, perhaps, help other people.


On 19 September 2003 (04:10 PM), Tammy said:

Boy, my understanding was that once the embryos have been ruined in the thawing process they are of little value. Some of mine did start to grow and make new cells but they soon died. Now you have me wondering. Do you know for a fact that "dead embryos" can still be used?


On 19 September 2003 (04:22 PM), Joel said:

Yeah, they use frozen embryos, that's how researchers can receive federal funds for "pre-existing" cell lines.
I wasn't trying to make you feel guilty. What you do with your embryos is entirely up to you... and the president of the United States. I was just trying to point out a case where societal ethics conflicted with scientific research. I should've just stuck with my second example of dangerous human experimentation and avoided the controversy. I'm a lot like Eminem in that way...


On 19 September 2003 (04:24 PM), Dana said:

Joel Alas, I feel that for the truly unbounded scientific enquiry there is no ethic.
...
If we consider that science is the unbridled desire to know as much as possible, it is as devoid of ethics as a feeding shark is of restraint.

Um.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. Science is a process that people do, just as government, politics and society are processes that people do.

Science as an abstract may well be untethered from ethics and moral judgements, but the people carrying it out aren't.

And those people may be bound by ethics which come from a wide variety of places: religion, logic, rote learning, or perhaps peer pressure. Of course, they might also not be bound by such concerns. They may be amoral psychotics. But they are not, for the most part.

I'm not advocating specifically for pantheonism, although it might sound that way. I haven't followed all the links, and so I'm basically expounding on my own beliefs and what JD has brought into the mix in his entry.

I'm not saying that logic and reason and science have to result in ethical behavior and reverence for the natural world. But it's not inimicable to such attitudes, either. Quite the opposite; it's possible for logic, reason, and science to engender such feelings and attitudes in people, just as religion can engender tolerance and inclusiveness as well as hatred and violence.

Shrug.

Joel ...we feel a natural revulsion toward such cruelty.

This is a devil's advocate invitation if I ever read one =)

Is it 'natural' instinct, or is it learned? How do you define 'natural'?

Is a beehive natural? A spider web? A bird's nest? A rabbit's burrow? A beaver's dam? If so, how is that different from a human's dam? Or a human's internal combustion engine? Or a human's mine? Or a human's house?

What about leafcutter ants? They actually farm fungus. It's effectively a domesticated 'plant'. Wild chimpanzees use sticks to get termites out of their mounds. But not all tribes of chimps do this, because not all tribes have learned how to do it -- it's cultural knowledge passed down from parent to child. Is that natural?

What makes something 'natural' and another thing 'unnatural'? Where's the dividing line?

There's nothing I can think of that we do that's uniquely ours in all of nature, except that we do all of these things while other things are spread out -- no other animal does all the things we do, but for everything we do, there is an animal that does the same thing, somewhere. We also do things on a global scale in a way that no other Earthly creatures do.

Our uniqueness seems to be one of scope and degree. We do all the things that any given other creature does, and we do those things on a bigger and more complicated scale. Is that unnatural?

(I have an opinion, but I'm largely pursuing this in a sort of devil's advocate sort of instinct and because I'm curious as to what your position on the above is.)

Joel ...we feel a reasonable empathy for the indvidual close at hand, not for the human race or the living planet in general."

Speak for yourself. I honestly think we should be seriously concerned for the eventual survival of humanity through interplanetary and interstellar colonization RIGHT NOW, because I'm concerned that if we don't start now, we might not have figured out how to do it by the time the Sun gives out on us, or something else (ourselves, comet or asteroid impact, whatever) does us in.

I'm actively concerned about the fate of big-H Humanity, despite the fact that I do not have kids, nor am I intending to have them in the future.

I have empathy for the Iraqis who are now under the heel of a foreign military power.

I have empathy for the inhabitants of plague-ravaged sub-saharan Africa. I have empathy for the dead and wounded of both the Palestinians and the Israelis. I have empathy for the workers in Far East and China who are exploited by multi-national corporations for the purposes of manufacturing our goods cheaply beyond the reach of our own nation's labor laws.

I think the modern world is a disaster of, well, global proportions. I have serious doubts that modern society is healthy, and while I think change is coming, I don't know when, where, nor what the long-term consequences of that change are going to be. I fear things will get much worse before they get better, and with things as they stand, Human civilization (or the species, for that matter) might not be able to make it through another "much worse" period. I don't see any particular actions I can take that will make this any better on any scale greater than immediate. So, I try to alleviate the pain and suffering of those I have the most contact with, and those who mean the most to me, while at the same time trying not to add to the pain and suffering of anybody else, whether I know them or not. I'm not a saint, by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just a person who wishes everybody could get along, and that we could work out some sort of societal interaction and plan that was viable over the long-term (by which I mean, centuries or millenia, not decades).

If I can figure out a better way to help more people more completely, I will attempt it. I certainly think about it.

All of this is what Einstein was talking about in one of those quotes I had yesterday. You can only experience your own little island of the world in which it seems pretty obvious that you are lonely and cut off.

But that is an illusion. You are connected to people (and plants, and animals) all over the world (as well as all around you right where you live) intimately, your fates intertwined. You are only alone to the extent that you choose to not engage those around you.

You still eat food they produced, use things they created, and breath air scrubbed by their greenery.

It is a good and proper thing to become aware of this interconnecting web of relationships, and realize that just as you depend on a great many others, a great many others depend similarly on you.

We're all in this together.

We just don't all acknowledge it.

(As always, all of this is IMHO)


On 19 September 2003 (04:25 PM), Denise said:

Ok - I'm not picking sides on the embryo discussion - but I just wanted to point this out:

Tammy is against embryo research because embryos 'make little people'. But at the same time, Tammy froze 6 embryos, and when they were thawed, 5 died. So, by freezing the embryos, 5 were killed (I am very happy that one survived and you now have a beautiful little boy - congratulations.

Question - why is embryo testing any worse than freezing an embryo? Five embryos were destroyed when you tried to thaw them. I am just trying to see how you differentiate between the two?


On 19 September 2003 (04:29 PM), Tammy said:

Yeh I know they use frozen embryos but embryos that have been ruined in the thawing process are no longer viable. I do not believe they use those. I am researching it on my fertility website right now. Ha. You had no idea you would actually encounter someone who was "vested" in your little example did ya?


On 19 September 2003 (04:36 PM), Tammy said:

Denise says: Tammy froze 6 embryos, and when they were thawed, 5 died. So, by freezing the embryos, 5 were killed (I am very happy that one survived and you now have a beautiful little boy - congratulations.
Question - why is embryo testing any worse than freezing an embryo? Five embryos were destroyed when you tried to thaw them. I am just trying to see how you differentiate between the two?


Answer: When you freeze an embryo you are not killing it anymore than when you get pregnant you are not killing the baby. Some frozen embryos result in death and some pregnancies result in death. Fact of life. That does not make frozen embryos a sin nor does it make pregnancy a sin.


On 19 September 2003 (04:38 PM), Dana said:

Tammy, I'm curious if you are talking about eggs or actual fertilized embryos. I suspect the former, not the latter.

That is, you had 6 eggs frozen, three of which began dividing (ie, were fertilized), of which only one resulted in a viable fetus, who is now your wonderful child.

I think the point is that if you hadn't frozen those six embryos, five of them wouldn't have been rendered non-viable. The freezing process is what made them nonviable. It's not that they were just randomly nonviable. I think Denise is asking why that's any better than using those eggs for stem cell (or whatever) research once you know they are nonviable?

Or even, if they were all six fertilized embryos that were frozen, how is it better that the freezing rendered five nonviable vs. some sort of research rendering five nonviable?

Of the five nonviable eggs, I believe only the two fertilized but nonviable (ie, those that began dividing, which were actually embryos and not just unfertilized eggs) would be useful for stem cell research, but I could be mistaken -- I'm not a biologist...


On 19 September 2003 (04:48 PM), Tammy said:

No dana they were fertilized eggs, thus making them embryos. They were divided to four cells. At that time they didn't know how to freeze an egg because it's cell structure was too weak.

To answer your question there is a big difference. I could not have had Wally if I wouldn't have had invitro fertilization. I did not freeze those 6 embryos so they would die. My hope was that they would all live. In the same manner when one gets pregnant one expects life. But often that is not the case. Normal pregnancies result in death too.

For you to say that if I wouldn't have frozen five of them then five would not have been rendered nonviable is like telling a woman, "If you wouldn't have gotten pregnant five times you wouldn't have had five miscarriages."


On 19 September 2003 (04:50 PM), Tammy said:

It never ceases to amaze me how far afeild we go in these discussions! :)


On 19 September 2003 (04:50 PM), Joel said:

No, Tammy, I didn't consider that. As I said, I should have just stuck to my dangerous experimentation thingy.
Dana, you clearly have a great abundance of empathy, and should be congratulated. Our society, however, is often more Kirky than Spocky. While there are numerous exceptions, we do not willfully harm an innocent to save the life of hundreds, this is what I meant by having empathy for the individual rather than the unfaced mass. Heck, you can't even willingly sell your own organs in this country! To zoom out a little, we can be said to care more about humanity than Life on Earth in general. Those of you who are living in logs (That fell of their own accord!) and subsisting on lichen, feel free to exclude yourselves from this statement.
You've kind of gone round the bend with my "natural revulsion" statement. In fact, you're kind of extrapolating my point. Here at OHSU we have America's largest primate center, which is regularly the target of animal-activism protests. So, due to our ethics, many of us would rather preserve the lives of individual apes than let scientists loose to experiment on them. The scientists I've known are always able to see a bigger picture that involves their research being for the greater good. Of course they're not amoral psychopaths, but there is no code of ethics involved with the scientific principle.


On 19 September 2003 (05:18 PM), Kris said:

Warning: I just spent the day listening to stories of babies born addicted to methamphetamine and children being taken from homes where meth is being used/sold/cooked.

Perhaps the over-arching issue here (with regard to the embryo thread) is that Tammy was able to make choices about her own family planning. She decided what was right for her and her family. In her case, she chose to freeze embryos. Someone else might opt to go with fertility treatments, adoption, or a surrogate mother, depending on their values and needs. The option to abort the embryo is a vital part of this continuum of being responsible for our own reproduction. May all choices be respected, even if we would not make them for ourselves.

I realize I'm truly opening the door to a heated discussion, or perhaps simply helping to kick it wide open. I have heard plenty of people say that women who choose abortions are "playing God", that is, they are working against some divine plan that includes their pregnancy. Some even carry this argument further to object to contraceptives in general. Yet, the same group does not have an ethical problem with in vitro fertilization, organ transplants, or sending food to starving children, or vaccinations, for that matter. In all these instances, we are acting in a way that thwarts a "natural" situation, in order to "improve" some other aspect of life.

If all children were as wanted as Tammy's, children would be truly valued by society. Instead, a pregnancy is sometimes a deliberate choice, often a blessing, frequently an accident, and in some cases a big mistake.


On 19 September 2003 (05:56 PM), Dana said:

Kris, I couldn't agree more.

Tammy, sorry, I shouldn't have probably jumped quite that hard until I knew if they were embryos vs. eggs.

I didn't realize that they had ever frozen embryos vs. eggs, actually. My ignorance of biological science is vast. I know only enough to be wrong, most of the time. I still have opinions, though =)

Joel:

Our society, however, is often more Kirky than Spocky.

I like this :)

While there are numerous exceptions, we do not willfully harm an innocent to save the life of hundreds, this is what I meant by having empathy for the individual rather than the unfaced mass.

Isn't that what having Firefighters, Police officers, and Soldiers is all about? Putting a small number of (well trained volunteers) into danger in the hopes of protecting the teeming masses? And drug trials, for that matter? Or do those fall into your exceptions?

The scientists I've known are always able to see a bigger picture that involves their research being for the greater good. Of course they're not amoral psychopaths, but there is no code of ethics involved with the scientific principle.

Sure. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I feel empathy for all those things I listed earlier, I don't necessarily feel that empathy equally divided. Sometimes you do have to prioritize because we don't live in a Utopian Paradise.

But I still hope that some day we can achieve, if not that, at least something better than what we currently have.

I hope I wasn't putting words in your mouth, 'cause I didn't mean to. (I wrote that all out in lulls at work, and I'm at home now.)

And while the scientific method itself, yes, is not ethical in and of itself, neither is a chainsaw. Both are tools (one a tool of rhetoric, and one a physical tool), and both can be used in both ethical and unethical ways.

Yes, many things can be justified as being for the greater good. But not all things. The fact that there is controversy over animal testing, for example, suggests that there may well be an imbalance in people's views about where the justifiable line is drawn. I personally think animal testing, at least to some degree, is justified. But at the same time, I'm all for treating those test subjects humanely.

The scientific method neither requires, nor excludes, ethical application.

And those ethics do not require religion to back them up -- they can come from many sources.


On 19 September 2003 (06:10 PM), Tammy said:

You guys there was no offense taken. We tried for seven years to have a baby. In the course of that seven years we tried everything that we deemed ethical; all the fertility treatments we could afford, 9 artificial inseminations using husband sperm, implantation of fresh embryos and implantation of frozen. I had two surgeries along with mega doses of hormones and we now have two little children!

I know that this is a tangent but I thought I would add it for your info. (Not that anyone cared to know) :)


On 19 September 2003 (06:26 PM), Tammy said:

Ps. I just a received an answer to my inquiry on my fertility board. The doctor there said that embryos must be alive and dividing to be used for stem cell research. Just thought I'd post that. Ok now I'll quit and get back in sync with the rest of you.


On 19 September 2003 (06:31 PM), Mom said:

I had thought about posting earlier, but wasn't feeling well at that point, so put it off, and during that time, the discussion went in a whole different direction from where it was when I was reading it earlier. I'm glad Dana brought up the subject of religion in this last post, though, because that was what I wanted to comment on. My thoughts relate more directly to what J.D. said in his blog today.

I am also a person who for the most part distrusts organized religion. To me, the flaws are often glaring. But at the same time, the world with its wonders, even just our human bodies and the way they are constructed, as well as the vastness of the universe, indicate to me that there is a God. I just don't see how all of these things could have come about randomly. To me, the scientific knowledge that has come to so benefit mankind is a result of God working through humans for our general well being. These feelings could be partly a result of my age and the general trend of my upbringing, but I haven't read anything yet that has made me want to give them up. Still, I enjoy reading the points you all are making and I think it does me good to expand my thinking and challenge it.


On 19 September 2003 (06:35 PM), J.D. said:

Dana: The sort of 'mechanical' 'scientific' awe of nature is something that arises out of understanding how things work and fit together...The sheer joy at the processes of the universe tends to come from people who are scientifically minded, and who have training in at least some symbolic logic.

Wow, Dana, do I disagree with this. I think that awe aof nature and joy at the processes of the univers is accessible to everyone. I don't think the scientific have some special inside track here.

Children feel this awe. My father felt this awe (though he ascribed to it religious meaning). Poets may feel this awe even more than anyone; they're certainly best at expressing it. I feel this awe when I am alone in nature: I feel overwhelmed by the verdant force around me, feel part of something larger. I feel it.

In fact, I often find that it's the 'mechanical' 'scientific' aspect of nature that strips this awe away. (But perhaps that's a personal limitation.) Whatever the case, this awe and wonder and joy is certainly not the sole purview of the scientists and, in fact, their claim to it is no greater than anyone else's.


On 19 September 2003 (06:35 PM), Mom said:

Well, Tammy, you are a faster typist and poster than I am, because when I started my last post, it was right after Dana's comment that included religion. :-) I admire you for what you have accomplished in having your children, and I'm glad you got an answer tonight to that question. My problem when I was of child-bearing age was just the opposite. I think I could possibly have been able physically to produce more children than I could have handled, emotionally. I'm glad I had the three I did -- they were just the right amount.


On 19 September 2003 (06:39 PM), J.D. said:

One other thing:

I've actually read all 34 comments to this point. I am impressed with this discussion. It's level-headed, intelligent, and thoughtful. I haven't actually read all 120 comments in the truth vs. Truth entry from last week, but now I'm thinking I might. If the level of dialogue is similar to this, it might actually be entertaining and thought-provoking.

Or it could just be a rehash of the same old arguments about transgenderism. :)

Anyhow: good work, folks. I'm impressed!


On 19 September 2003 (06:59 PM), Dana said:

JD Wow, Dana, do I disagree with this. I think that awe aof nature and joy at the processes of the univers is accessible to everyone. I don't think the scientific have some special inside track here.

Different awe.

Not awe and wonder at the simple beauty. Awe and wonder at the physical processes that give rise to the simple beauty. Not just the play of light on the surface of the water, but knowing about the phase changes and refraction going on to create it. It deepens the awe, it doesn't remove it.

At least for some people =) Not everybody responds the same way to the same input. Some people have that knoweldge, and it ruins it. The see the process and not the beauty. Others see beauty in the process.

All different levels, not necessarily better or worse than one another. Awe and wonder are awe and wonder, after all. =)

I don't really understand quantum mechanics (or general relativity, for that matter), but I find them awsome and a source of wonder and beauty to the extent that I do understand them.

Fire is a good example -- it's a chemical reaction, producing photons (light and heat) and ash, and there are convection currents (modeled by chaotic strange attractors) and all sorts of things going on, physically, in just that simple little spark.

It's amazing.

From the smallest little particle to the grandest sweep of the heavens, it's all amazing, no matter where it came from. The more you know about it, the more there is to be amazed and awed by.

What amazes me most about science is that I see this complex network of interplaying particles, forces, photons, entropy, chemical reactions, biology, and on and on, and I only grasp most of it dimly. I didn't finish my advanced degrees. I have a taste, and I can talk about this stuff, but I don't have a strong deep understanding of most of it. I just have a taste. I see it as mindblowingly complex and endlessly fascinating. And I only have a dim comprehension of the small piece of it that science has currently discovered. There's vast oceans of unknown stuff compared to the puddle we do know, and I only wade a little ways out from the shore in that puddle, and I'm already overwhelmed by the beauty and depth and structure of it all. How must it be to actually understand even more?

I can only imagine.

It's not that scientists have a secret amazement or awe not available to other people. Amazement and awe are amazement and awe. But not everybody is amazed and awed by the same things. Math is amazing, to me. Not to most people. The dripping of a faucet is described by a fractal. In fact, it was modeling a dripping faucet mathematically that gave rise to chaos theory, if I recall correctly.

We both enjoy Buckaroo Banzai, but we don't enjoy it in the same way. And that difference isn't really quantifiable or weighable. It's not that my enjoyment of it is better or worse than yours, it's just different.

Does this make sense?

I really think I'm not being very articulate today. :P I'm very tired, so perhaps that has something to do with it.


On 19 September 2003 (08:39 PM), dowingba said:

I'm jumping way back here. Tammy, when talking about your frozen embryos. You say you froze six with hopes that they would all survive? You wanted to have sextuplets? Or did you really mean you froze six so you have six times the chance of one surviving? Playing the odds is alot different than hoping to have sextuplets.


On 19 September 2003 (09:42 PM), tammy said:

We froze 6 embryos because that is how many fertilized eggs we had left after a cycle of invitro. If I would have had 20 left I would have frozen 20. We were hoping and praying that at least one would result in a baby. But if all 6 would have made it then I would have had all six. I would have had no other choice since I do not believe in selective reduction which is just a nice term for abortion. Statistically the chances of all 6 surviving were extremely lo. We did not want sextuplets. I actually had them frozen in vials of three but the day before they were to be thawed the drs felt like my chances of conceiveing were so slim that we should probably heighten the odds. So we unthawed both vials. My age played a huge factor in this decision. But.. if 6 babies would have made it then yes I would have sextuplets aaaannnnnd I would have a maid!!!


On 20 September 2003 (07:08 AM), Joel said:

Ah, the weekend. The time when one can really have these posts to oneself. Hear that? Crickets chirping... the soft [whump] of the sun rising... Now if only I had something to say....

Mom (not technically my Mom, but I don't recall your given name), I really liked your post of 19 September, 6:31 PM. I've heard such a sentiment before, but something about your phrasing, or perhaps the context of all that came before it really made me feel good about it. Thomas Aquinas tells us that there is an intellectual component to faith, which is why, alas, all dogs probably don't go to heaven. I think Tommy would approve of your measured consideration.


On 20 September 2003 (07:24 AM), Tammy said:

So why are you up so early? My kids got me up. But if I didn't have to get up with them believe me I'd be sleeping!


On 20 September 2003 (07:45 AM), Joel said:

Alas, Tamela, 'tis the love of gain that drives me ever onward, the pursuit of worldly wealth in dribs and drabs breaking my back and the hearts of my dearest dears.


On 20 September 2003 (09:51 AM), Tammy said:

You are too funny!


On 20 September 2003 (10:49 AM), Mom said:

Thanks, Joel, for your affirmation. BTW, my given name is Suzanne, but generally for friends and family I go by Sue.


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