Lawyer Dave,
Do you think JD should be a lawyer? I say this because you have been trying to pursuade him to join you in morning workouts at the gym for many, many months. At the same time, JD has been trying to pursuade you to blog. I haven't heard that JD has been to the gym, however you are now blogging. It appears he may have just had the taste of his first win.

If it's anything like Ally McBeal, I'd be very very surprised. I liked Ally (particularly the second season or so, when it had found it's feet but not jumped the shark), but it wasn't exactly a blueprint for the Legal profession any more than Star Trek resembles being an Astronaut.

Ouch. Actually, JD has told me that it is his intention to begin working out again near his home as soon as he has recouperated from the house projects. And I have gotten him to work out with me in the past. For a while we were going regularly. Recently, however, that hasn't been the case.

As for JD being a lawyer, it seems to me that JD is a very conflict adverse individual. He's commented on how he wants his life to be as stress free and "simple" as possible. Although he may think things through in a logical fashion I don't think that he's very inclined towards the kind of conflict and stress that goes along with being an attorney. Note that this will probably mean that he'll outlive me by 15 years.

Finally, simply because JD asked me to do something doesn't mean that he "won", because it wasn't a contest. He's my friend and I trust his judgment on things. So if he asks me to help him out, I try to do that.

Ah yes, Ally McBeal. We've been described as the Aly McBeal lawfirm of Salem. I've not watched the show, but I can assure you that we have no dancing babies. And in order to get a case to trial takes for bloody f-ing ever, not 2 days as you might think from watching the show (my partners have commented on this anomaly). Getting a case to trial is kind of like watching salsa dry on your skin. Slow, painful and it leaves an acidic residue.

Oh, come now Dave the Lawyer...I have recently been paying my lawyer $200.00 an hour - that said, even if he only bills for 30 hours a week, and only works 50 weeks out of the year, he is still making 5 times what I make (gross that is). And I have my MBA - so I had to spend 3 years of my life to make 5 times less than a lawyer.

But - I don't have to work 60 to 80 hours every week, just usually during peak seasons (one month out of four).

So I'm not biting on #1.

True, Denise, as far as it goes. If your lawyer bills as you said then he would gross $25,800 per month. But, there's a lot you don't see.

From that comes rent (anywhere from $1,500+ for a decent office), phones (at $70 per line x 3 lines, at least), malpractice insurance, staff/employees (say $15 p/h x 40x4.3+ employer side taxes per employee so say $3,330 per month not including benefits), benefits for employees (health care will cost anywhere from $150 to $450 per month depending on how much you pick up, ditto for 401k type plans) advances for clients, telephone ads (a small telephone ad is $500+ per month), office supplies, water, sewer, gas, electric (essentially for each of those take your home bill and triple it per month) and equipment costs. If you have a stand alone office (ie, not part of an office building) then you need to include exterior maintence and landscaping as well. By the time you're all said and done, I'm willing to be that assuming you collect 100% of your billables every single month that you're down to roughly 6-7k gross. This is before you pay the employer side taxes, Metro (if you're up there) state employee taxes, worker's comp., etc. Believe me, there are much more lucrative and stress free ways to earn a living.

The average collection rate is about 75-80% (if you run a tight ship), so discount the gross by 20-25%. Shocking, but true, people frequently don't pay their attorney. Domestic relations cases (which I'm assuming Denise is talking about) have a fairly high bankruptcy rate since most people have debt problems, which contributes an additional discount to the above. In addition, most "billable hours" take more than a straight hour. For every one hour you bill, you've probably worked 1.5 hours to get that. On top of that, if you have your own business and aren't working for someone else, then you need to include the marketing time, bookkeeping time (or else you're paying someone else to do that for you) and the time it takes to fix things around the office when something goes wrong. On top of that you still have to spend the time to develop the infrastructure that it takes to actually practice law. You need to set up forms, update forms, keep abreast of the law and it's developments, attend continuing ed. classes, set up office procedures, review employee performance, do payroll, and on and on and on...

Of course, the above assumes that you're self employed. If you work for someone else then those costs are hidden from you. But, although you don't see those costs, they're definitely there. Plus you almost always have a "billable hour" goal, which you have to meet. Most firms have a billable hour goal of at least 1,800 billable hours per year. That's 150 hours per month. A 40 hour work week will get you 172 hours a month. Seems ok so far, right? But remember, it frequently takes 1.5 hours to get a full billable hour. That also assumes you take no time off. Ever. Nor can you charge for absolutely everything (although it may seem like that happens when you get the bill!), so there's plenty of time that gets written off. Nor does this include the time that you spend talking to people who don't become clients but have scheduled appointments for consultations to see if they want to become a client or not. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes you can't charge for that time or recover the costs. It also doesn't include the time you spend talking to potential clients on the telephone, which can be very time consuming.

If you have your own firm, you have a great deal more latitude than if you are working for someone else. Most people, however, don't get out of law school and start their own firm (although I did). Most people go work for someone else. Starting salary in Salem for a freshly minted graduate when I started in 1994: $28,000 per year. It's higher now (but not by much) and it's higher in Portland than in Salem (which is lower than the state average because there's so many lawyers down here). Starting salary in the Portland area at a big firm (about 15% of the new hires are big firms, which are top dollar employers) is probably $50,000 or so. That's if you've got really good grades and academic qualifications, ie, law review, etc.

Ok - I've just bitten hook,line and sinker.

You win! ;)

Your volunteering to help a JD is admirable. JD has commented many times in the last 6 weeks about your efforts in helping him with their house. Today's blog is yet another type of support.

I'm basking in the glow of whinning!

I mean, winning.

Wait a minute. Did Paul just say I'm JD's supporter?

As a concerned member of the insurance industry, I recently read a survey that said that lawyers and doctors were two of the occupations of people who were most-likely to speed. Care to comment?

Those doctors. Sheesh. What do you expect?

As for us lawyers... I can't speak for any of the rest of them because I can't stand to ride with them. I've one partner who is crazy when he drives and nearly mugs people. I've another partner who leads me to believe that I'm about to be killed everytime she pulls into traffic right in front of someone. As for me, let's just say I enjoy Sammy Hagar's song, I Can't Drive (55). Fortunately, 55 mph is no longer the maximum speed limit on rural interstate highways.

Ummmm. You're not my insurance adjuster are you? I wasn't speeding on Friday night. I was just minding my own business. Honest.

Tomorrow: Dave's superpower: automobile calamity attraction.

I think Dave the Laywer Guest Blogger is going to be a fun two weeks!

Another question - what is a laywer?

I don't know either.

It's pocket biker shorthand for, "I'm getting laid? Where?"

Nice job today, Lawyer Dave.

I have to wonder how many billable hours you've lost to the blog -- this could be an expensive experiment!

Too many, my friend. Too many. It actually takes some time to dash off this stuff. And of course I don't want to look like a complete git, either, so it actually has to have some modicum of coherence to it.

So... it is time consuming and doesn't pay well? I'm surprised at that given the cost to hire a lawyer. Thanks Dave, for a bit of perspective from a lawyers view. I have a son that is thinking law is his future, but he is merely 12 years old --- he does enjoy 'discussing' ok, ''arguing with his brothers, and I did make mention one day that he could perhaps make a living proving himself right and getting paid for it - that idea does at this pooint in his life suit him well.

How old were you when the idea of becoming a lawyer first struck you as a thing to do?

(pardon the typos, sitting on the deck with the laptop and no mouse I err easily!)

Hi, Dave.

Does Lawyer Dave ever get time to play his violin anymore? Or to sing a few madrigals?

Just curious . . .

A violin-playing, madrigal-singing lawyer? Someone call David E. Kelley. I think we've found an idea that will fill the void left by the cancellation of Cop Rock and Ally McBeal.

Dave played the violin too?

All I could ever play was Aztec War Dance. I could almost master Rhinestone Cowboy, but it was a little too complicated for me. Once my left hand needed to do something way different than my right hand, it was all over. A child prodigy's hopes dashed at the age of 12...

Dave didn't play the violin; he played the viola. As such, he was much lower on the orchestral pecking order. Unless you ask him. In that case, he was much higher.

Hello from Ketchikan!

I'm paying $5 for 20 minutes of internet access, which is better than paying $25 for 33 minutes of access on board ship. Right? I only have eleven minutes left, though, and I have to see what the Mirons have been up to. Hang tight!

To answer Desiree's question, I knew pretty early on that I wanted to be a lawyer. Too much Perry Mason as a youth, I suppose. I actually wanted to be a criminal defense and constitutional law lawyer. After practicing criminal law for a while I rapidly disabused myself of the thought that it was something I wanted to do. First, I was fairly good at it, which meant that I would get people off who probably didn't deserve to get off. Second, I got tired of dealing with people who were criminals. A completely different mindset.

Hi, Kristin. Kristin asks about the violin. I didn't actually play the violin on a regular basis (although I could). I actually played the viola, a far superior instrument in terms of range and tonal dynamics, in my opinion. (So there, JD) Although I have it still, tucked away in the basement, I don't play it much. Every now and again I pull it out and saw away. I do enjoy the occassional madrigal and I can frequently be seen driving through Canby with the Kings's Singers in the CD player, madrigaling away in my Tenor II range. Lately my musical direction has been focused upon the Roland DX-700 keyboard that I recently purchased from Andrew Cronk. Now that I've managed to get it connected to the computer I'm having a small amount of fun playing with it.

I have been thinking about forming a barbershop quartet. Anyone interested?

I have been thinking about forming a barbershop quartet. Anyone interested?

Do we have to be able to carry a tune?

Yes.

will you arrange Samantha Fox and Chris DeBurgh songs for your barbershop quartet to sing in the gazebo in the park?

I knew the error of my comment on the violin before I even read JD's or your response. Of course it was a viola!

Probably no Chris DeBurgh songs, but John Doe's post the other day got me thinking that perhaps some heavy metal barbershopping might be in order. Back in Black in four part harmony could be quite entertaining.