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16 August 2004 — Guest Blog: Conservatives and Gay Marriage (16)

At the risk of starting a flame war on JD's blog, I wanted to post something about the gay marriage issues that have been cropping up. Sometimes family and friends ask for my opinion on some of the legal issues surrounding this hot button topic. The recent California Supreme Court opinion was one of those times.

Although I didn't read the entire opinion (being 100+ pages long), I did read the gist of the opinion, and here's my summary: The major of San Francisco looked at the law of the State of California, decided he was a judge and that in his opinion the law was unconstitutional and therefore he didn't have to follow it. Ergo, he started having his city issue same sex marriage licenses. Unfortunately for him, the major of San Francisco is not a judge, does not have the power to declare things unconstitutional, and does not have the luxury of simply disregarding the law of the land. We therefore overturn his inappropriate actions and invite someone to sue the State of California to determine whether it is in fact a violation of the equal protection clause to issue marriage licenses only to heterosexual couples.

Oregon is about to consider this issue on the November ballot. As a personal matter, I frankly don't care if gay couples want to get married. I'm reasonably sure that none of them are marrying me, so have at it. Assuming that they're 10% of the population and that they're like everyone else, they'll get divorced at a 50% rate, which means more business for the domestic relations practice in the firm. Since gay couples traditionally have more assets than heterosexual couples, they'll have more to fight over. If they have kids, both are probably going to want custody. I smell big lawyer dollars on the horizon. On the other hand, if the people of the State of Oregon say that they only want heteros to get married, then so be it. The people of a state ought to be able to decide to whom marriage licenses should issue. That said, I don't particularly want the issue decided in our Constitution, however. It should be a statutory thing, not a constitutional thing. Marriage didn't start out in the Constitution and I don't see why it should go there now.

One thing, however, that has puzzled me about this debate is the position of the various Christian churches. Although I could charitably be described as non-religious, I consider myself fairly well versed in the scriptures. My reading of the Bible says that there's a pretty good case to be made that God doesn't cotton well to homosexuality. As such, the moral high ground is held by the conservatives. Nonetheless, there are very religious Christians who believe that gay marriage, and presumably homosexual acts, should be acceptable and even condoned by the state.

But if the Bible says homosexuality is a sinful act, why then do some Christians support it?

I understand that many of these references are Old Testament references and the argument about Christ coming to fulfill the law, not destroy it, etc. If, however, this was taken as a carte blanch waiver of the Old Testament and it's teachings, what prevents me from coveting my neighbor's wife (or, at the risk of being crass, his ass)? If the only commandment remaining is to love thy neighbor as thyself, should I lovingly practice euthanasia on my neighbor if he asks me to?

The problem, of course, is that the conservative Christians tend to cherry pick their arguments. When is the last time we heard a conservative Southern Baptist preaching that we should forgo pork? Or lobster? Or banish menstruating women because they're "unclean" and forbid them access to the church? Answer: we haven't. Some have simply latched onto this particular sin and decided that it's worth pursuing because it offends their concept of what's right in the world. (If pressed here, I'd have to admit that simply because I haven't heard anyone complaining about Christians eating pork doesn't mean that perhaps the Southern Florida Synod of the Methodist Presbyterian Lutheran Congress or some such isn't pushing this as an active issue. I just haven't heard it on the national news lately.)

The other side of the coin is problematic, too. If you profess that the moral fabric of your life is based upon a text, i.e. the Bible, are you free to disregard portions of that text? Do some textual references carry more weight than others? Can we say, "Yes" to gay marriage, but "No" to assisted suicide and still be within the text? If the Bible weren't the word of God, then the answer is "yes, some parts may be more valid, more weighty, and therefore more deserving of our attention than others." However, as many are fond of pointing out, the Bible is the divinely inspired work of God. All of it's parts must therefore be equally valid or else some parts of what God says are worth less than other parts.

So what I'm left with in this debate then, is that both sides, the religious conservatives and liberals, have cherry picked their issues. Each elect to overlook certain issues in the founding text because those ideas don't meet their own idea of what their religion should look like. If that is the case, then it's really hard for anyone to claim any type of moral superiority in the discussion, isn't it?

On this day at foldedspace.org

2005Hot Water   When we bought our first house, we had problems with the water heater almost immediately. It was small, and it was pathologically incapable of producing truly hot water. [Audio version available.]

2003Kickoff!   In which I am excited about the start of the English football season, though disappointed by Everton's loss to Arsenal.

Comments
On 16 August 2004 (12:33 PM), Paul said:

Lawyer Dave,
Question: Can a mayor of a city ASK the state supreme court to review a section of the state's constituition and make a legally binding decision to the constitutionality of the section in question?

Question II: Can the mayor of a city ask the legal department to get a legally binding decision on a section of the state's constitution without a non-governmental employee claiming that the section in question is unconstitutional?

Thanks for your clarification on this matter.



On 16 August 2004 (12:37 PM), J.D. said:

You want a flame war? I'll give you a flame war!

Alaska is gorgeous. No — it's fucking gorgeous. It's like the best parts of Oregon, but magnified. Kris and I may just stay in Sitka.

Now, back to your regular-scheduled guest blog...


On 16 August 2004 (12:38 PM), Denise said:

No, no, no...if you really want a flame war start dissin' Pocket Rockets.


On 16 August 2004 (12:53 PM), Paul said:

I bid $50 for their house, but it has to come with the iPod.


On 16 August 2004 (01:01 PM), tammy said:

What sort of legal recourse do I have for soembody posting entrys on their blog pretending to be me. This person opposes my stand on the gay issue and has taken to putting entrys on his weblog using my kid's names. Any legal action here?


On 16 August 2004 (01:11 PM), Dave said:

To answer Paul's questions, you can and you can't. Very few things get put directly to the Supreme Court of a state. They usually have to go through the trial court (our circuit court, for example) before the Supremes get their hands on it. So technically you can't get directly there.

You can, however, petition the circuit court for a declaratory judgment. Which is essentially coming in and saying, "We think this is supposed to be read this way. Are we right or wrong?" And since the city is a separate entity from the state and we're talking about a state statute, then yes, you could have the city sue the state for such a determination. Thus, you do not have to worry about whether you've got a plaintiff who's not a government employee. The other way to do it is the MA way, in which you put together the best looking set of plaintiffs you can find, sue the appropriate person claiming an abridgement of civil rights by refusing to issue a license for marriage. It just depends on whether you've got the governmental entity on your side or not.


On 16 August 2004 (01:18 PM), Dave said:

Tammy- Although I'm happy to comment about procedural things and policy matters, I'm reluctant to comment on a specific legal instance because I don't want to be giving legal advice in a public forum. A variety of possible claims come to mind when talking about the issues you raise, however, remember that the general rule is that people have a wide latitude in speech. Simply because someone posts something using a particular name isn't necessarily actionable. People have posted things here using my name, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were intending on impersonating me or causing me any harm, even though the position they were taking was clearly opposite to my position. But these things are almost always fact specific.


On 16 August 2004 (02:50 PM), Paul said:

Lawyer Dave,
Thanks for the answers to my question.
Question III: Do you have an opinion on why the San Francisco mayor just didn't ask the lower courts to make rulings and follow up with petitions to the higher courts?

Question IV: If you have an opinion, would you be willing to provide your insight in this forum?


On 16 August 2004 (02:53 PM), Paul said:

Assuming you literally answer my questions. If you answer yes to both Q III and IV, please provide that opinion to the forum.

Thanks!


On 16 August 2004 (03:07 PM), Dave said:

Not having any particular insight into the personalities and knowing only what I've read/heard in the news, I would speculate that he wanted to get the glory of being the first major city major to authorize same sex marriages, regardless of whether it sticks. Locking it up in litigation would've taken the better part of a year, even assuming that it was fast tracked from day 1. There' very little political glory in litigation. Plus, this way he can claim the political "high ground" both ways. As in, "look what I tried to do for you and the Supreme Court hammered me for it." This way he's guaranteed to get the gay vote and in SF that's fairly important, I'd think.


On 16 August 2004 (03:26 PM), Paul said:

Thanks again.

It appeared that MA fast tracked their case in less than a year. Is it reasonable to say that MA took a "better" route for its constituants due to obtaining the legal stamp of approval first? Can MA assume that their actions will end up under the scrutiny of the US Supreme Court?

How did the 50 states come to agree to recognize each others marriage licenses? What does each state get to stand on that will allow them not to recognize another state's marriage license.

Do laws regarding unwanted sexual attention in the work place indicate whether the genders of the perp and victem matter? This question refers to the New Jersey governor's latest legal issues.

Does same sex marriage appear to open up scrutiny of the legal system for gender/sexual orientation questions? Or our most civil laws gender neutral?


On 16 August 2004 (05:48 PM), Dave said:

1) I don't know that MA took a "better" route in terms of obtaining a result for it's citizens, but I believe that they took the more legally correct route. As for whether it will end up in the US Supreme Court, I don't believe so. At least not directly. The MA decision was based on the MA Constitution as I recall, not the Federal Constitution. As such, the Federal Courts don't have much say in it. But, see #2...
2) The 50 states didn't agree to recognize each other's marriage licenses. But because marriage is the public recognition of a state endorsed contract, the marriage license and certificate of marriage issued by one state is considered to be an official act of that state. As such, Article 4, Section 1 of the Federal Constitution (The Full Faith and Credit Clause) requires that states honor the official acts of another state. This is why my marriage (in PA) is valid here in Oregon. Not that I particularly care if I live in sin, but there it is. Therefore, a valid marriage in another state is required to be honored in every other state. The worst thing possible for the states opposing same sex marriage is that one state unequivocally grant the right for same sex couples to marry and then move to their state. Then there really is both an equal protection clause problem and a full faith and credit clause problem for that state. That will probably end up in the Supreme Court.

As for what they can stand on to not recognize the other state's license? For hetero's, nothing. For same sex couples, the argument would probably be that marriage in state X clearly does not mean the same thing that it does here and thus we're not going to honor it because we can't. That particular form of marriage doesn't exist here. It would be like asking the new state to recognize a polygamous marriage because Utah suddenly decides to make that legal again.

3. Gender plays an important role, but is no longer the deciding factor. It used to be that a man could not harass a man. In the last 10 years that's changed, so that you can have same sex harassment. In fact, you can have same sex harassment between heterosexuals, although that's fairly rare. Most of the time it has to be pretty blatant to get to that point. I have to admit, however, that I don't handle many sexual harassment cases, so the nuances may be incorrect.

4. I'm not sure that I understand you first question. If you're asking whether the legal system will suddenly realize that there are same sex harassment instances in the workplace because we decide to allow same sex marriages, I think the answer is no. We already recognize that. As to the second questions, most laws (that have been passed in the last 20 years) are fairly gender neutral. They may elect to use a male pronoun, but they usually define that pronoun to include the female. If not, no one seriously makes a gender distinction in the application of the law anymore. There are obvious exceptions for things like public breastfeeding laws, but if push came to shove I think most judges would say, "Mr., if you want to try to breastfeed in public, you go right ahead."


On 16 August 2004 (07:37 PM), Dana said:
The worst thing possible for the states opposing same sex marriage is that one state unequivocally grant the right for same sex couples to marry and then move to their state. Then there really is both an equal protection clause problem and a full faith and credit clause problem for that state. That will probably end up in the Supreme Court.

I disagree on historical grounds that this would be the worst possible thing.

Back during segregation, the various US states had differing laws with regard to interracial marriages and as far as I've been able to determine (granted, I'm hardly a lawyer) there were no Supreme Court cases and the Union didn't collapse. Some states recognized them, some didn't, and there were varying methods for handling them for couples who moved.

Of course, today is not then, and there are people far more interested and capable of suing over the gay marriage situation. But still, I expect after a few contentious years things would settle down into peaceful coexistence.

That having been said, the constitution is pretty clear. The various states wouldn't have much of a legal leg to stand on to deny another states license and I suppose it could precipitate a constitutional crisis. Somehow, I don't think it will get to that point. We'll see, I suppose.


On 17 August 2004 (07:37 AM), kool-azz rider said:

Denise said: No, no, no...if you really want a flame war start dissin' Pocket Rockets.

don't you be hatin on my ride again cuz i'll shut your computer down. ;-)


On 17 August 2004 (07:44 AM), Dave said:

What I meant by "the worst thing possible" is that if the state's goal is to prevent same sex marriage, then it is a bad outcome for them if some other state does it, which thereby forces every state to do it.

And yes, there were different laws regarding interracial marriage. And there were several Supreme Court cases which gradually eroded any hope that miscegenation was a valid position for the state to take. However, it was Loving v. Virginia 388 US 1 (1967), that squarely put the final nail in that coffin. After that there were some statutes on the books which prevented interracial marriage, but everyone recognized that they were unconstitutional and were unenforceable. I think that even Alabama has finally gotten rid of it's statute banning interracial marriage.

As for the Constitution being clear, I'm not convinced that is the case. I could very easily see the Court holding that same sex marriages are so far outside the marriage statutes that most states have that requiring Oregon to recognize a same sex marriage from Vermont would be inappropriate because Oregon has no mechanism for recognizing such a union. As an extreme example, suppose that Virginia had a statute which authorized contract killings and I sucessfully completed such a contract and then sued in Virginia to collect my money. So far so good. Virginia grants me a judgment. I then go to Oregon to collect it. Will Oregon be required to honor that judgment? Maybe not because the underlying policy is so far outside of the "approved" public policy that the court could well say that the Constitution was never intended to legitimize contract killings and therefore Oregon does not have to honor the judgment from Virginia.


On 13 September 2004 (12:38 AM), Carey said:

Actually, the Bible is not against homosexuality. While doing research into Scripture I found that the Bible was altered by King James to cover up his sin of wantonness. Also, there is a compelling argument why God supports same-sex marriage. I invite you to read a paper grounded in Scripture that will make you scratch your head, and possible change your mind. It's called "Connecting the Biblical Dots: Why Jesus Is For Same-sex Marriage" found here: http://www.purplepew.org/gaymarriage/


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