Dishpan Dribble

I have struggled with submission for nearly 15 years now. Having grown up with an undiagnosed bi-polar stepdad whose mood was mercurial, I had a very bad example of submission. Mom did whatever Dad said to keep the peace. Heck if I was ever going to do that!!! But somehow, despite my not really asking God's will, I married a Godly man I can submit to. It is hard, but I have to remind myself that it is not for his glory but God's. If I am faithful to God in this, He will bless our family (and has!). Submission does not mean blindly doing whatever my husband says -- he respects my opinion, seeks it out in fact. We are a team. I think too many women who buck submission have negative examples of men in their past. If you truly trust God, He will make it work. I had a friend say to me recently that even if she thinks her husband is wrong, if after discussion they still don't agree, she submits to his decision (even if her husband is wrong) and trusts God to make it right because of her faithfulness. I pray to have that faith in my marriage!!

In the not-so-long-ago, when I was a young wife...well, okay, 19yrs is long ago, but that's beside the point...I used to buy into that no-man-can-make-me-do-anything stuff. I wasn't hard-core feminist, being raised in a conservative church, but the seeds were there all the same.
I just couldn't reconcile these two images of a doormat wife with the Biblical picture of submission until a dear, older friend explained it this way:

As you said, Tammy, everywhere we are submitting to someone. For there to be ORDER, there must be some rules and a chain of command. God set up the family in much the same way as a branch of the military is set up today (wonder where they got the idea?).

There are privates (pardon me if I mix up ranks or something, I'm NOT military!), there are seargants, there are majors and generals. The privates are no less important than the generals, but they do have less responsibilities.

God gave the majority of responsibility for the family's wellbeing to the husband, like the general, even tho he may not be entirely responsible for the problem, if he doesn't "see to it", he will answer for it one day. We are to work in conjunction with our husbands, not as mere plebs, but as partners with different jobs and duties to perform. Sometimes we exchange tasks because it is the most expedient way to get something accomplished.

If I am constantly fighting to be the general, how will anything get done? Who will suffer?

The family, the children, the RELATIONSHIP.

Yes, we have equal rights to express opinions rights to be ourselves, right to not to do 95% of the work, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum.

But when we can't relinquish a bit of our me-first attitude for the good of all, then we need some strong self-examination, IMHO. Isn't that the name of the game anyway?

I applaud your stand, Tammy, for what that's worth. Thanks for being real. :)

Thanks, G. You said it better than I could.

I wouldn't argue that submission MIGHT be necessary to maintain order, but shouldn't it be based on something more than gender or sex. What about "submission" based on abilities, intelligence, or merit?

The Bible was written by a bunch of men, is it surprising that they decided they wanted women to submit to them?

G~ I'll add a bit from my military background. :) You said, "The privates are no less important than the generals, but they do have less responsibilities." I understand where you are going, but would change that last line to: "The privates are no less important than the generals and have just as much to do, but their responsibilities are different." Privates work hard and without their hard work, there would be no military. The only difference is in the set of responsibilities.

IOW, just what you and Tammy said. :)

js~ That may sound like a good idea, but it's not how God set things up.

The Bible doesn't just say for wives to submit to their husbands, but also for Christians to submit to one another. And the husband is exhorted to treat his wife using the golden rule (Do to others as you would have them do to you.). And he must submit to Christ who is OVER him. The wife isn't the only one who is exhorted to submit:

From Ephesians 5:22-33

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- for we are members of his body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

So the husband and wife are to serve each other. This is where many men stopped reading. They like the submitting to be done TO them, but neglect that they, too, must submit to Christ by serving their wives. It's a beautiful thang!

Tammy, you were right on, girl! Great post!

I like your modification, kevin. Thanks for adding it! That IS much more what I was attempting to say. I know pvts work VERY hard (I do happen to know a few of those ;) and their work is VERY necessary. I just didn't communicate my meaning so well.
Anyhow, thanks. :)

Submission is one of those areas of great misunderstanding, and I believe you did a fabulous job bringing some clarity to the subject.

I think one thing I would add is the reason for submission. The wife excersized a great deal of pride in listening to the serpent.. "that you may be like God..." and if we were completely honest, the reason we disdain submission is pride. We don't like laying down our will to the will of another. We don't like answering to another. God has set up a "chain of command" but not just for order.. it's for our good, to bring us to humility, to soften our hearts, to see worth in others and not just our high flung ideals about ourselves. He set things up like this because scripture says, "God resists the proud but gives grace to the HUMBLE." He is teaching us humble hearts, so we might be able to have a relationship with Him.
Thank you again for your post!

Submission is one of those areas of great misunderstanding, and I believe you did a fabulous job bringing some clarity to the subject.

I think one thing I would add is the reason for submission. The wife excersized a great deal of pride in listening to the serpent.. "that you may be like God..." and if we were completely honest, the reason we disdain submission is pride. We don't like laying down our will to the will of another. We don't like answering to another. God has set up a "chain of command" but not just for order.. it's for our good, to bring us to humility, to soften our hearts, to see worth in others and not just our high flung ideals about ourselves. He set things up like this because scripture says, "God resists the proud but gives grace to the HUMBLE." He is teaching us humble hearts, so we might be able to have a relationship with Him.
Thank you again for your post!

Good post. As a fairly newlywed who was single for a while, I'm still struggling with submission. Wanting to, but fighting it. Thanks for the encouragement here... :-) God is good.

Great discussion. There are chains of commands everywhere we turn. We might not like who or what is above us making the decisions, however, we are bound to following the decisions for the good of the many, whether it be family, job, friends, etc. Remember also, there are many families where the woman is the "dominant" figure due to many reasons, not the least of which is personality. Some people couldn't make a decision or don't care one way or the other and will follow. I believe every family finds their "working" order whether it be the man or woman.

I get this debate all the time. In my religion people are always saying that the women are downtrodden. I have to strongly disagree. I am given the freedom to BE a woman and not to feel that I have to be a man to find value and virtue in my own life. Women and men are different by God's design. We have different strengths and weaknesses and when we work together we are a whole.

I also have to say that submission to my husband is no chore. He is the leader of our home but he leads with humility and the goal of good for all of us. He counsels with me as his helpmeet in all things and we work together. We do have different responsibilities but I'm never seen as less important. If anything, he undervalues himself.

Thanks for this subject.

A great post! And that's probably an understatement.

People bristle at submission because of pride. But if the chain of command is followed from Christ on down with everyone holding their end of the bargain, it can run smoothly and with joy.

I still have some questions on women teaching over men. Some quote there is no male or female in Christ Jesus. Others quote no woman should teach a man. But wasn't that in a bible letter address to people during that time period? What if the woman knows more than the guy? What about Deborah in the book of judges? Didn't she have authority over ALL people for 40 years? And what about submitting to one another in love...there is no mention of gender there.

Just some thoughts and questions.

Submitting one to another in love really means give deference to the other rather than to obey each other. In the Greek it isn't the same word as the word used for submission to a husband. It seems to be saying that we are not to always demand our own way but to give in to the preferences of others.

There is no doubt that a lot of women are smarter than men. But intelligence does not seem to be a factor in Gods book. Here's the thing; God can make an unwise decision by a husband turn into good because the wife did not demand her own way and did things in the order God set up for the home. God honors His word. If he says submit he will make sure things work for good.

The New Testament mentions several times that women are to keep silent in the churches. I think it means what it says. It doesn't mean that the man is always right but nevertheless, we are to keep silent and not to usurp authrity over men. It may sound old fashioned and outdated but it's Gods order and His order is there for a reason. We have to trust that He knows best. To try to improve on His plan is not going to work!

Excellent comment, Tammy. This is such a tabu topic in ALL areas of life! So refreshing to see it discussed and explained so calmly and scripturally.

Thanks AGAIN! ;D

Interesting. *smile* I'll file it away and chew on that tid bit of info and see what the Spirit speaks to me concerning it, or what He adds to it. Thanx.